cam : Using the Eureka Motif for the State Flags: I have done in the past NSW;

and Queensland;

I couldn\'t get Victoria, South Australia or Western Australia to come out with a nice Eureka based design, the colours weren\'t right. But Tasmania, despite a red and green background came out well;

However I remain a fan of Brendon Jones\' Australian Pale state flags.

cam

Felix the Cassowary : Governor-General\'s proclaimed flags: Regarding the Governor-General\'s ability to proclaim flags, were they actually proclaimed by the various Governor-Generals of their own initiative, without any oversight by the Cabinent? I always assumed that the G.-G.\'s ability to proclaim flags was just Westminster Government style language: The G.-G. proclaims the flag, but he\'d only do it if the Prime Minister of the day \"advised\" him to, and if the PM had advised him, then he\'d do it. This is not part of a political role of a Governor-General, no more so than the fact that till Commonwealth legislation has the G-G\'s signature (or the Queen\'s), it\'s not in force. It\'s just a piece of eccentric wording a hundreds-years-old governmental system is likely to have, and a very smart way of allowing future evolution: saying \"Prime Minister\" makes it harder to allow alternations between a presidential the-Prime-Minister-is-king system like we currently have, and a collegial the-Prime-Minister-is-first-amongst-equals system like we used to have, and I expect we will have once again.

But you\'re saying, to the contrary, that (some of the) proclaimed flags were proclaimed by a Governor-General on his own initiative, without the Prime Minister first advising him to do so? That would indeed by an unexpected use of the Governor-General\'s power. I would\'ve thought a constitutional crisis would\'ve ensued, but I haven\'t heard of any.

avocadia : I red carded myself: I have banned myself from making up flag designs. After my last effort, which Cam so foolishly/cruelly (:- ) made a reality, I think y\'all will thank me.

avocadia : Politics prevented crisis:

The wording of the section seems to me (IANAL) to give the GG the power to declare flags as Australian flags on his own. Section 63 of the Constitution caveats all references to the GG in the Constitution as really meaning the PM and his cabinet. Unless there is some other piece of legislation extending section 63 to be a blanket qualifier on all references to the Governor-General within and outside of the Constitution, then we may believe that the power granted in the flags act is unexpected but it is only because we have fooled ourselves into believing it so.

Even if it was unexpected, the GG stole a march on the PM. I am of the opinion that it would have created a worse constitutional crisis for the PM to step in and overruke the proclamation. There would have been some hair-splitting on exactly where the letter of the law was trumped by expectation, and it would have highlighted the dysfunctional state of the Australian executive. This would not have suited Howard\'s politics, so not crisis. On the other hand, we did get a crisis, or at least a media beatup, when WIlliam Deane turned out to have an opinion on Aboriginal affairs markedly counter to that of Howard. The difference was, there wasno exercise of power involved, so all Howard had to do was a quick, public "back in your box."

cam : Except: The Tasmanian one is almost exactly the same as the one you described, but with the white stars, instead of yellow. ... I think your red card was removed at the tribunal.

cam

cam : I had a quick look in Hayden\'s biogaphy: I couldnt find it. I know it is mentioned in there, but it isnt indexed, and I havent made a note on the inside cover about it. I will have a mroe detailed look when I have time. I got the the impression that it was the Governor-General\'s decision, previously it had been so defence flags and state governor flags could be made \"flag of Australia\" (the GG is the commander in chief after all). But this was an extensions of it, and a positive one IMO.

Surey Bill Hayden has an email address, we should probably try and ask him ourselves the circumstances and events around it.

cam

cam : Trackbacks: Road To Surfdom, Imagining Australia:

• Road To Surfdom: See Who Salutes
• Imagining Australia: Take Down The Union Jack, It Clashes With The Sunset

cam

cam : The Goggles, they do nothing: Ugh, 1997 called and wanted its frontpage theme back . The GG\'s site isn\'t pretty.

I emailed the GG office asking about the circumstances. The guts of the email;

I was wondering about the circumstances of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander flags being elevated to official flags of Australia using Section 5 of the Flags Act.

Can that authority be used by the Governor-General without advice from Cabinet? Or does the authority to use Section have to come from Cabinet first, and then be implemented by the Governor-General?

cam

cam : Western Australia Eureka-ised:

Though the Eureka southern cross is turned on its side in a mimicry of the Australia Pale design. But if that is the case, it may as well be a proper Australia Pale design instead - like this one .

Stars might look better white too.

cam

Felix the Cassowary : New flag for Victoria: I like the Australian Pale too—it\'s a distinctively Australian Symbolism and enforces a particular Flagginess about State flags that could otherwise be missing from our subnational Entities. Have you seen the US States and even Candada\'s Provincial flags? They\'re very unflaggy. Many of them are just the Great Seal of the State on an blue field. Symbols of the Government, not the People; very unamerican. (Americans are good in that they continuously remind us that the Government is just a branch of the People, not something separate from it. They\'re republicans through and through.)

New South Wales\' lucky: their Warratah just screams \'Flag me!\' and is so easily stylised, appropriately for a flag.

Unfortunately, I don\'t think there\'s any Australian pale design you could use that is appropriate for Victoria and incorporates our traditional Imagery. We\'ve used the Southern Cross since Time immemorial, and blue and white are our Colors. The Southern Cross that would occupy the \'customisable\' Spot on the Flag would clash badly with the Southern Cross on the side section. The Colors would also be difficult in the short term until the Australian flag is changed to something with more appropriate colors for Australia.

So Brendan Jones has introduced a triangle charged with an eight-pointed star, such that the former looks like a V. The \'V\' stands for Victoria, not Victorians; and I have no idea what particularly Victorian imagery can be inferred from an eight-pointed star; after all, many New South Welsh flags (including unofficial proposals) of the past and present have included them. They have no place in Victorian imagery. Also, it\'s only a thinly-veiled V, and letters haven\'t really been that popular on a proper flag. (The early NSW and NZ flags were just ways of saying \'this or that part of the British Empire\'. I suppose you could say that Victoria\'s flag should just say \'this or that part of the Australian Federation\', but I\'m not so sure that\'s a useful goal.)

On the other hand, the Victorian Southern Cross isn\'t really, well, Victorian. Even when Victorians see it, they\'ll often think of the Australian one. I suppose it\'s a bit like the way Sydney is Australia (a statement only people who\'ve never been to Sydney can dispute); Victorian imagery is just Australian...

Still, I think the Southern Cross should serve as the basis, not the linkage, of a Victorian flag. It\'s always been ours: and not just something imposed (like the Crown, which isn\'t actually an integral part of either the Coat of Arms of Victoria, or the badge on the flag that originally limited the size of Southern Cross).

(Personally, as an aside, I don\'t object out-of-hand too much to a use of a Crown. The, ahem, Republic of Austria uses a Crown in their Coat of Arms, for instance. Any republican Australia or New Zealand will probably retain the legal concept of the Crown unless we do more than just the minimalist changes. And after all, what\'s the current symbol of secular Victoria and Australia but a usurped representation of Christian symbolism? But said Crown will firstly be unpopular, and secondly need some other justification; history alone\'s probably insufficient. This justification might be difficult to come up with without talking of the Empire or some other equally anachronous sentiment, so I think it\'s best dispensed with.)

The current Victorian Government, at least, has taken to using blue stars on a white background for their logo ( albeit inconsistently ). This helps distinguish Victoria from the Commonwealth. Actually, the entire logo is generally flag-shaped, and the triangle/V now augments and frames Victoria, rather than standing for Victoria. I think, if suitably modified, we can also avoid claims of political bias: The triangle-and-cross combination was used by the past Liberal Government, albeit with a crown ’twould be axed anyway.

I\'d suggest for a Victorian flag to keep us going for the next hundred and thirty-odd years, the current Victorian Government\'s logo, without the word \'Victoria\' (extending the triangle-and-cross  to the full height, and/or cropping as appropriate), and with the triangle-and-cross now in the left-hand side. The Governor\'s flag could either maintain the current gold and red color scheme or simply be a blue/white inversion of the replacement state flag: But who knew the Governor had his own flag anyway?

Failing that: I can only think of something like a blue-and-white (or white-and-blue) Canadian on Norfolk Island flag with a blue or white Southern Cross rather than a maple. Still, with nothing to augment the Southern Cross but the number of points on its stars, it doesn\'t shout Victoria enough.

Also, his Tasmanian design lacks imagination, and I don\'t get the logo on his Queensland design, but I\'m not a Queenslander, so they might think it appropriate.

That was rather longer than I meant it to be.

Felix the Cassowary : Coats of Arms: I also want to add that I\'m pretty happy with most of the Australian States\' Coats of Arms. I wish I would see them more often, and larger. (Though I\'m only really likely to see the Victorian one: Other states might use them more prominately than we do.)

cam : Some possibilities: other than the white-blue V. Eureka is pretty Victorian, so maybe permuations on the Eureka Flag in dark blue and white might be provincial enough. That puts a Victorian stamp on the Southern Cross.

With blue borders on the top. I dont like this one though.

Norfolk Island and Canadian style.

I put one pixel borders of dark blue around them so they can be seen against the white background.

cam

Scrymarch : Distinctive Victorian Symbols: Tram rampant on a background of verdant MCG.

Felix the Cassowary : Unions?: Maybe it\'s just a Victorian thing, but Eureka strongly implies trade unions. While a Labor government might be happy enough to make it our flag, I think the Liberal party and their voters would be a little less agreeable to it.

cam : Eureka is the Australian flag of liberty: The BLF, plus nationalist groups got a hold of it because the conservatives were so busy denying Australia\'s heritage and trying to enforce an anglo history on us.

The Eureka flag needs to be reclaimed as our flag and symbol of liberty. This was Lalor\'s speech at Eureka, as told by Carboni ;

Peter Lalor, our Commander-in-chief, was on the stump, holding with his left hand the muzzle of his rifle, butt-end rested on his foot. A gesture of his right hand, signified what he meant when he said; \"It is my duty now to swear you in, and to take with you the oath to be faithful to the Southern Cross. Hear me with attention. The man who, after this solemn oath does not stand by our standard, is a coward at heart.\"

\"I order all persons who do not intend to take the oath, to leave the meeting at once.\"

\"Let all divisions under arms \'fall in\' in their round the flag-staff\"

The movement was made accordingly. Some five hundred armed diggers advanced in real sober earnestness, the captains of each division making the military salute to Lalor, who now knelt down, the head uncovered, and with the right hand pointing to the standard exclaimed in a firm measured tone:-

\"We swear by the Southern Cross to stand truly by each other, and fight to defend our rights and liberties.\"

An universal well rounded amen, was the determined reply, some five hundred right hands stretched towards our flag.

Emphasis mine.

cam

Felix the Cassowary : More than just Melbourne: It might surprise some from this city of mine, but there\'s more to Victoria than just Melbourne.

Felix the Cassowary : Easier said than done: What\'s the BLF?

I did realise that about Eureka, though—I\'ve been reading this site for long enough ;) Still, I suspect it\'ll take more than a little time to reclaim Eureka; or at least the flag. In the meantime, we\'d have to leave Union Jack and the Queen\'s Crown on the flag. Is that really appropriate?

cam : Builders Labourers Federation: Probably showing my age there. I think they have long since amalgamated with other Unions.

cam

Scrymarch : But of course: ... and it\'s remiss of me to suggest otherwise.  Perhaps a brawny farmer, in profile, pulling a plough?  A Latin inscription Victoria Brilliantis could be superimposed, in red and yellow colouring on a green field.  An abbreviation could be substituted if space became an issue.

Rowdy : New Green and Gold Flag for a republic: To view a new green and gold flag that might be suitable for an Australian Republic, visit:
http://www.7gs.com.au/flag.html

Rowdy : Moved website: The page in the above comment has been moved to:
http://www.7gs.com/flag.html